Scientists Study Evidence Modern Birds Came From Dinosaurs
This is COOL! I love this kind of stuff. Im still a little kid in regards to dinosaurs. What kid wasn’t into them? I watched a documentary a few weeks back on how scientists were “Tweaking” genes and mapping DNA in chicken embryos to have them grow teeth and scales rather then beaks and feathers. It seems the birds genes mutated over time and certain things just stopped developing but further study was needed. They also did this with other forms of bird species.
The story:
WASHINGTON - It looks like chickens deserve more respect. Scientists are fleshing out the proof that today’s broiler-fryer is descended from the mighty Tyrannosaurus rex. And, not a surprise, they confirmed a close relationship between mastodons and elephants.
Fossil studies have long suggested modern birds were descended from T. rex, based in similarities in their skeletons.
Now, bits of protein obtained from connective tissues in a T. rex fossil shows a relationship to birds including chickens and ostriches, according to a report in Friday’s edition of the journal Science.
“These results match predictions made from skeletal anatomy, providing the first molecular evidence for the evolutionary relationships of a non-avian dinosaur,” Chris Organ, a postdoctoral researcher in biology at Harvard University said in a statement.
Co-author John M. Asara of Harvard reported last year that his team had been able to extract collagen from a T. rex and that it most closely resembled the collagen of chickens.
They weren’t able to recover dinosaur DNA, the genetic instructions for life, but DNA codes for the proteins they did study.
While the researchers were able to obtain just a few proteins from T. rex, they have now been able to show the relationships with birds.
With more data, Organ said, they would probably be able to place T. rex on the evolutionary tree between alligators and chickens and ostriches.
“We also show that it groups better with birds than modern reptiles, such as alligators and green anole lizards,” Asara added.
The dinosaur protein was obtained a fossil found in 2003 by John Horner of the Museum of the Rockies in a barren fossil-rich stretch of land that spans Wyoming and Montana. Mary H. Schweitzer of North Carolina State University and the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences discovered soft-tissue preservation in the T. rex bone in 2005.
The research of Organ and Asara indicates that the protein from the fossilized tissue is authentic, rather than contamination from a living species.
The researchers also studied material recovered from a mastodon fossil and determined it was related to modern elephants.
Their research was funded by the National Institutes of Health, National Science Foundation, Paul F. Glenn Foundation and the David and Lucille Packard Foundation.
Meanwhile, in another paper in Science, researchers report refining a method to determine ancient dates that will allow them to better pinpoint events such as dinosaurs’ extinction.
A team led by Paul Renne, director of the Berkeley Geochronology Center and an adjunct professor of earth and planetary science at the University of California, Berkeley, said they were able to refine the so-called argon-argon dating method to reduce uncertainty. The method compares the ratio or two types of the element argon found in rocks.
The greater precision matters little for recent events in the last few million years, according to Renne, but it can be a major problem for events in the early solar system. For example, a one percent difference at 4.5 billion years is almost 50 million years.
The new system reduces that potential uncertainty to one-fourth of one percent, the researchers said.
(AP)
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These guys have way too much time on their hands. Evolution didn’t happen (see earlier thread arguments a couple of months ago); there isn’t any evidence it ever happened; and I can provide a pretty good date for the extinction of the dinosaurs and it wasn’t “millions and millions of years”; it was about 2500 B.C. during the Great Flood of Noah.
None of the “dating” methods (Carbon-14, Potassium-Argon, etc) are accurate for the simple reason that they always assume continuous rates of radiation striking the earth and continuous, steady-state environmental change over “millions and millions of years” rather than catastrophic occurrences in nature (like the Great Flood).
(News Flash) They weren’t there, so any evidence they present in favor of their “millions and millions of years” guessing is exactly that: pure guessing. Sorry Charlie.
And, of course, any “catastrophic” events they might talk about strictly avoid any mention of a Biblical Flood; because if they should, then the Education Elite would instantly shout them down and do their best to defund and “excommunicate” them from “their” universities. Yes indeed; freedom of speech for all but those religious crazies who actually believe in God.
April 24th, 2008 at 6:39 pmOld Sailor
——————-
I believe God did it. It had to start somewhere…..
April 24th, 2008 at 6:42 pmLOL. Homologous structures are not proof of relation. This is an old trick. For years, public school textbooks have shown pictures of similar features in various creatures, and the students are told that this shows a common ancestry. However, the similarity can just as strongly point to this thought: a common Designer created both creatures. It would make sense for the LORD God to use similar structures to accomplish similar physical needs and movements.
Likewise, the marmot-like hyrax is claimed to be the elephant’s closest living relative. Why do they think this? There are similarities in the teeth!
Oh! Maybe the octopus is related to man since there is a similarity in the eye structure; or pigs must be related to us, because they can get sunburned like man can. Don’t be surprised if you hear these from evolutionists too. Now consider how the ammonite shell has the same curve as we find in spiral galaxies, a curled sea horse tail, the placement of seeds in a sunflower, the horn on a big horn sheep, and even a hurricane! Does this mean these are related? No, these common features proclaim a Creator who made all things.
Beware, my friend! There have been many attempts to link dinosaurs and birds. Over and over, claims have been made, and these are publicized. Then when it is proven false, little or no retraction is offered to the public. Archaeoraptor liaoningensis Sloan had fifteen pages in living color in his honor in National Geographic. The find from China turned out to be a hoax, but only a couple of small paragraphs were initially used to admit it. You could have easily missed that information. So, many still think it is true.
Television commercials show dinosaurs and birds as being related. Museums, schools, and zoos say the same thing, with no true evidence. Even toys are made to brainwash children. A toy Therizinosaurus made with feathers? e\Even though we’ve never found a Therizinosaurus specimen with feathers! However, if a child plays with such a toy, he’ll believe it is a proven fact. Any thinking parent should loudly call “Foul!”
Just for the record, birds positively did not come from dinosaurs.
Argue all you want to. Prove it and I’ll believe it. Oops, too bad…you can’t.
April 24th, 2008 at 6:45 pmPat, I’ve seen a lot of stupid shit posted on your site….but this says all that will ever need to be said. These are your fans.
April 24th, 2008 at 6:56 pmI’m not sure why this has cropped up again. This is decades old information. I seem to recall reading about this waaaaaaay back in highschool science class.
Besides, it’s crappola anyway just like old sailor and Dan have outlined.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:00 pm@LftbndAgn
Oh it most definitely started somewhere. You say you believe God did it all? Good, cause Genesis 1 is where it started:
The dinosaurs were made on day six (Genesis 1:24-31) beside Adam and Eve, while the birds were made the day before, on day five (Genesis 1:20-23). So don’t swallow this chicken bone.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:12 pmWow.
I happen to have seen with my own eyes the “connective tissue” found in a T-Rex. It was absolutely amazing, and I’ve also seen the antibody array tests where this tissue tested positive for bird proteins. There’s nothing magical or mystical about it - dinosaurs are related to modern birds. This makes sense considering how the dinos were wiped out; the smallest among them would be preferred for survival in the global catastrophe following the Chixulub meteorite impact.
Evolution in action.
Old Sailor, Dan - sorry, but you’re just plain wrong on this one. You both remind me of my company Gunny, who used to haul me into his office for lectures of the sort of thing y’all have to offer. Didn’t make any sense then, either.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:43 pmHow’s your knee replacement?
April 24th, 2008 at 7:57 pmQ-Mech:
No Q-Mech. You’re wrong AGAIN. God created this planet and all that is in it…and evolution still defies the logic of that ordered creation.
You cannot defy natural law no matter what linguistics you use to define your theory.
The circular argument you keep posing is nonsense. And I don’t care what you saw in the museum…it proves nothing.
Birds are birds, repitles are reptiles, etc. There are no transitional species. No proof of evolution exists except in the dellusion that is evolution.
I’ve made my points. You made yours. This is the kind of discussion I want to see in the public school system.
You remind me of that tactic that NVA pilots use to use over NVN. They’d fly in a circle trying to draw in US fighters. If a fighter entered the circle to chase a MIg he got shot in his six.
It’s the evolution proves evolution that proves evolution argument…which is specious at best.
No sale here bud.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:17 pmOh, I’m not trying to convince you of anything at this point. You’ll just repeat the same petty insults over and over, probably tossing something in about how religious people get shouted down by the Educational Elite. As much as I love irony, that does get tiresome.
Besides, I think that my capacity to remain civilized is tapped out.
But in case you give a damn, I saw the connective tissue in my laboratory, not in a museum.
…and the NVA has a place in this? Really? Good googly mooglies…
April 24th, 2008 at 8:41 pmWhether one believes that the Lord created it all, or it was all by accident, it is what it is.
The Bible gives us guidance and rules to live by, and to help us understand and relate to others.
Science gives us technology and an evermore detailed understanding of God’s amazing handiwork.
Neither side of the evolution/creation dispute will convince the other, because neither side accepts the basic premise of the other side, and hence, they cannot accept the arguments and conclusions derived from the premise.
My two cents.
April 24th, 2008 at 8:52 pmQ-Mech:
Yep, I keep repeating that evolution defies natural law.
And the business about the NVA was an analogy of your arguments.
And actually, do give a damn. If I didn’t I wouldn’t still be posting here especially at this late hour.
See us religious types are used to the elitism of the left.
We don’t mind the criticism. But we ain’t backing off either.
You evolutionists have your theory and us creationists have ours. Never the twain shall meet. But they both deserve equal weight in academia.
And that last sentence has been my point all along. Problem is that there can be no civilized discourse so long as evolutionists insist that “we’re wrong” or whatever the elitist jargon du jur is anymore.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:12 pmSee us religious types are used to the elitism of the left.
Now I’m a leftist elitist? Can’t wait to tell my friends about that one.
Evolution doesn’t defy natural law. Evolution is natural law. I think you just can’t accept the possibility that this is true because it would challenge your religious beliefs, and you’re not going to open your mind to anything I’ve got to say about it.
For me, this is simple. Where nature and the Bible come in conflict, there really is no conflict. The Bible was written by men. Nature was written by God. There’s a natural hierarchy there, if you’ll pardon the pun.
As for Genesis, it contains a hidden, much more powerful message than the fairy tale that it appears to be at first reading. The deeper message is a parable about growing up, and a deeper statement about what God expects of us. On first reading, it sounds almost childlike with its magical tale of creation. As you grow up, learn about the physical workings of the world and read it again, it starts to dawn on you that it can’t possibly represent a literal truth. That truth that the truth written in the rocks and worlds around us is far more sophisticated and intricate than what Genesis states, and quite frankly doesn’t give God enough credit. It’s then that the deeper meaning is revealed - that God doesn’t expect you to just read it and obey it as a child does, but rather that you’re expected to grow and think about creation - and everything that follows it in the Bible - critically. You’re expected to apply the gifts of intelligence, wonder and curiosity that you’ve been given. You’re expected to use those gifts, given to no other species, and to find the deeper meaning in all things. I think it’s a downright magical way to start the book off.
Either that, or you’re just supposed to repeat what the words say. Your call, but bear in mind that growth doesn’t suck.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:58 pmSelf-imposed -1 for accidental, excessive use of “bold“.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:09 pmQ-Mech:
Ok I’ll play some more.
See us religious types are used to the elitism of the left.
“Now I’m a leftist elitist? Can’t wait to tell my friends about that one. ”
Me: Excellent.
Evolution doesn’t defy natural law. Evolution is natural law. I think you just can’t accept the possibility that this is true because it would challenge your religious beliefs, and you’re not going to open your mind to anything I’ve got to say about it.
me: Yeah you keep saying that…..You can argue all you want. But you cannot defy the Second and First laws of Thermodynamics. Evolution is not natural law or any part thereof. Mutation is not acceptable in the natural world.
Nature rejects mutation of any kind.
And agian there are no transitional species. One cannot evolve from one family of species into another. It is simply impossible.
“For me, this is simple. Where nature and the Bible come in conflict, there really is no conflict. The Bible was written by men. Nature was written by God. There’s a natural hierarchy there, if you’ll pardon the pun.”
The Bible was written by men inspired by God. The first 5 books of the Bible were dictated by God (the only eyewitness left to creation) to Moses.
Nature does not defy its creator, since He’s the one who created the laws that govern nature. The theory of evolution defies those laws and is therefore not possible.
“As for Genesis, it contains a hidden, much more powerful message than the fairy tale that it appears to be at first reading. The deeper message is a parable about growing up, and a deeper statement about what God expects of us. On first reading, it sounds almost childlike with its magical tale of creation. As you grow up, learn about the physical workings of the world and read it again, it starts to dawn on you that it can’t possibly represent a literal truth. That truth that the truth written in the rocks and worlds around us is far more sophisticated and intricate than what Genesis states, and quite frankly doesn’t give God enough credit. It’s then that the deeper meaning is revealed - that God doesn’t expect you to just read it and obey it as a child does, but rather that you’re expected to grow and think about creation - and everything that follows it in the Bible - critically. You’re expected to apply the gifts of intelligence, wonder and curiosity that you’ve been given. You’re expected to use those gifts, given to no other species, and to find the deeper meaning in all things. I think it’s a downright magical way to start the book off.”
me: No. Genesis is the eyewitness account of the creation of the world. There’s no parable to it. It is the infallable word of the living God. Evolutionist theory is the real fairy tale here.
“Either that, or you’re just supposed to repeat what the words say. Your call, but bear in mind that growth doesn’t suck.”
me: I only say what I believe. You on the other hand keep repeating the same dogma that I’ve heard since grade school. I got past my evolution stage. Why don’t you take your own advice and “grow”. You’re right it doesn’t suck.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:48 pmTen years or so ago PBS broadcast a program I watched about Human evolution.
The points made were;
1. Testing for both Male and Female DNA proved that their were not ANY common Ancestors among Neanderthal man, Cro-Magnon man and homo-sapien.
(Latter being humans)
2. The so-called “Missing Link” involves a time gap of hundreds of thousands of years between each of the three species.
The program aired ONE TIME ONLY…as far as I know. I’ve kept an eye out for it to know avail.
Draw your own conclusions.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:36 pmGo to my website and download the Book of Genesis. Take a long look at the first chapter and then try and tell me that it is only a “fairy tale”.
http://www.thekingdombible.org/Bible%20Volumes/The%20Laws_2.0/Book%20of%20Genesis%202.0.pdf
April 25th, 2008 at 12:05 amIf God created the universe 6000 years ago, as some people believe, why did he also create so much evidence in biology, geology, cosmology etc, that the universe is billions of years older than that. Surely he wasn’t setting out to deceive?
April 25th, 2008 at 1:00 amI have always been scared by chickens, must be a memory of a past life among the dinosaurs
April 25th, 2008 at 2:14 amI just want to be a Christian and these scientists won’t let me.
April 25th, 2008 at 3:28 amAlways thought those dinosaurs tasted like chicken.
Time is a creation of man and his finite little mind.
Some minds have way too much time.
April 25th, 2008 at 4:27 amJohn, I told you, your too clever to be creative
April 25th, 2008 at 4:54 amIf God created the universe 6000 years ago, as some people believe, why did he also create so much evidence in biology, geology, cosmology etc, that the universe is billions of years older than that. Surely he wasn’t setting out to deceive?
If God was able to create the universe and all life in it in six days, including a fully-grown and functioning man out of mud with a wife from one of his ribs, He is also able to create the appearance of age in His own Creation.
Don’t forget that there is evidence that the speed of light has not always been limited to 186k/sec. Many theologians believe that before Adam and Eve sinned against God, the speed of light was instantaneous, and only slowed down after sin corrupted the fabric of the Universe. That would explain much of what we see in our telescopes. And even if the speed of light had never changed, God is mightier than His own Creation and can do as He pleases at any time He chooses.
“Who has measured the water in the hollow of his hand, and measured heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? Who has directed the Spirit of JEHOVAH, or being his counselor has taught him? With whom took he counsel; and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding? Behold, the nations are like a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the fine dust of the balance; behold, he takes up the islands as a very little thing. And Lebanon is not sufficient to burn, nor are the beasts of it sufficient for a burnt offering. All nations before him are like nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity…To whom then will you liken me, or shall I be equal?’ says the Holy One. ‘Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who has created these stars, that brings out their host by number; he calls them all by names by the greatness of his might. Because he is strong in power, not one is missing.” Isaiah 40:12-17,25,26
April 25th, 2008 at 2:18 pmGenesis is an allegorical myth. If you take it literally you are missing the much deeper meaning of the miracle that is life. God made us smart. Understanding where we came from using our minds and spirit is God’s will. Taking the Bible literally would put us back into the stone age.
April 25th, 2008 at 6:17 pmBelieve whatever the hell you want, but I think its pretty clear that God intends for you to use your head for something more than just a hat rack.
April 25th, 2008 at 8:32 pmMax
Your answer is implicit in my question. A deity capable of creating a universe and all its contents is, of course, able to create “evidence” that it is billions of years older than its creation.
But the question to young earth creationists is why?
April 26th, 2008 at 1:16 amVery simple: God wants you to believe in Him by faith, not by sight. Nowhere in the Bible does God spell out doctrines like in a Statement of Faith or a Creed. Believing in Christ is believing in what you cannot see, but knowing it to be true. God the Holy Spirit is the only One who can reveal Christ to you, and He does it through the Word of God. By believing in Jesus Christ you come to know the Truth, and Truth will set you free.
The Bible cannot be understood by the mind alone; it must be understood by faith, because it is God’s Book.
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen: for by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the Ages were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things that are visible” (Hebrews 11:1-3).
Those who want to “figure it all out, and then believe in God once they have all the answers” will never find God, because God has already given everyone all the information they need to be saved right in the pages of the Bible:
1)The Bible tells us that we are sinners and completely enslaved to sin (Romans 3:10,23)
2) The Bible tells us that the reason we are sinners is because we were born that way being descendants of Adam who disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden (Romans 5:12).
3) The Bible tells us that God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, to earth to die on a cross and rise again so that we might have forgiveness of sin and eternal life IF we repent of (turn from) our sins and believe in Christ. (John 3:16, Romans 5:8, 6:23)
4) The Bible tells us that if we call on the Lord to save us, God will hear our prayer and save us from our sins and going to Hell (Romans 10:9-13; John 1:12).
The point you mention “Why” would God put “evidence” of an old universe in a young creation is very simple and goes with what I just said above. Faith is the key which opens the door to salvation and the knowledge of the True God Jesus Christ. No faith would be required if everyone could see Jesus Christ in person with the nail prints in His hands and feet. But God has chosen faith in an unseen Savior in Heaven (from our standpoint) as the Only Way to Heaven. And, He has placed just enough things such as you mention in the Universe so that those who refuse to take the all-important step of Faith in the Unseen Jesus Christ will bring damnation upon themselves with their own unbelief. You see, “London Calling”, when we refuse to obey God and try to do things our way instead, God turns your disobedience into the thing that will destroy you. There are real consequences for rejecting the Word of God and God’s Plan of Salvation. Here is some Scripture which sheds some light on how this works:
“And now you know what withholds that he [the Antichrist] might be revealed in his time: for the Mystery of Iniquity is already working; only he [the Holy Spirit] who now is restraining will continue to restrain, until he is taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked one [the Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming; whose coming [the Antichrist] is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they did not receive the love of the Truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe the Lie, that they all might be damned who did not believe the Truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess. 2:6-12).
When people reject the Truth found in the Bible, God magnifies their rejection and turns it into their own destruction. That’s the way it works, friend. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes unto the Father, but by Him (John 14:6). When you believe, then you will understand. I’ve been a born-again Christian for over 25 years, and I used to be a drunk and a drug addict, because I had nothing to live for and did not believe in Christ. After I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior on August 31, 1982, my life was completely changed and I knew Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord from that day forward. I’m not talking about perfection (God knows), but day by day change and transformation. God called me to a Bible Translation ministry after I trained in Bible College and Seminary, and I’m also a Software/Systems Engineer by trade. I’ve spent literally tens of thousands of hours studying the Bible, and I can tell you that the Bible is absolutely trustworthy and there is no doubt whatsoever that it came from God word for word. Check out the Kingdom Bible format, and you will know that also. www.thekingdombible.org
April 26th, 2008 at 2:49 am