Russian Bear Goes For West’s Jugular
Short article, you’ll blaze through it. And key.
The war in Georgia escalated dangerously last night after Russian jets reportedly bombed a vital pipeline that supplies oil to the West.
After a day of heightening international tensions, Georgian leaders claimed that the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which transports oil from the Caspian Sea to Turkey, had been attacked. But it is thought the bombs missed their target.
Their claims came after Russian jets struck deep into the territory of its tiny neighbour, killing civilians and ‘completely devastating’ the strategic Black Sea port of Poti, a staging post for oil and other energy supplies.
Reports last night also said that Russia had bombed the international airport in Tbilisi.
Georgian economic development minister Ekaterina Sharashidzne said: ‘This clearly shows that Russia has targeted not just Georgian economic outlets but international economic outlets as well.’
The pipeline is 30 per cent owned by British Petroleum and supplies 1 per cent of the world’s oil needs, pumping up to a million barrels of crude per day to Turkey.
t is crucial to the world’s volatile energy market and the only oil and gas route that bypasses Russia’s stranglehold on energy exports from the region.
As President Bush led the West in intensifying pressure on Russia to halt the bombing in Georgia last night, the two countries were edging closer to full-scale war over their conflicting claims for disputed territory.
Georgia’s President Mikheil Saakashvili called for a ceasefire and accused Moscow of mounting an unprovoked invasion that put ‘the entire post-Cold War order of Europe and the world at stake’.
But Moscow said that the conflict could not be resolved unless Georgia withdrew from its breakaway region of South Ossetia. The alarming developments followed a second day of drama and bloodshed in the pro-Western country in which:
• Russian jets widened the offensive by bombing the central Georgian town of Gori – Joseph Stalin’s birthplace – in an attack on military targets that Georgian authorities claimed killed 60 civilians, and attacked the port of Poti.
• Georgia claimed that Russian troops had opened a new front by moving into another disputed province, Abkhazia, which has also suffered from ethnic tensions.
• Georgia declared a state of war, recalled all its 2,000 troops from Iraq and ordered a mass call-up with reservists being sent to the war zone to ‘defend the motherland’.
• Russia claimed that it had ‘completely liberated’ the capital of South Ossetia Tskhinvali – a claim denied by Georgia – after flying in elite troops in an operation Moscow said was intended to force Georgia into a ceasefire.
• Georgia claimed to have shot down 12 Russian combat aircraft – but Moscow confirmed that only two planes were missing.
• Georgia may pull its 35-strong Olympic team out of the Beijing games because of the Russian military attacks, the country’s National Olympic Committee said.
The forces of the two countries first clashed on Friday after Moscow sent hundreds of troops and armed convoys across the border into South Ossetia to repel a Georgian attack on rebels allied to Moscow.
Almost 40,000 refugees have already fled to Russia from the fighting, threatening a humanitarian catastrophe.
Tskhinvali was said to have been ‘almost destroyed’ in onslaughts by both sides.
Bodies lay in the streets and hospitals were overwhelmed with wounded.
Most of the 70,000 South Ossetians hold Russian passports and are allied to Moscow, while Georgia is an ally of the US and has applied to join Nato.
Russian bombers yesterday widened the offensive to force Georgian troops back from South Ossetia by bombing.
In his first Press conference since the conflict broke out early yesterday, President Saakashvili said: ‘I call for an immediate ceasefire. Russia has launched a full-scale military invasion of Georgia.’
He reacted furiously to the air strikes on Gori and Poti, saying that it was comparable to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
He also alleged that Russian troops were opening up another front, adding: ‘Hours ago Russia’s Black Sea fleet started to move into Georgia’s territory in Abkhazia. Russian troops and heavy equipment are in upper Abkhazia.’
He said Russia was conducting ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Ossetia and Abkhazia’s Kodoro Gorge region.
The Georgian Parliament has approved a declaration for a ‘state of war’ for 15 days after at least 2,000 civilians were killed in fighting between Russia and the former Soviet satellite.
Overnight, two Russian planes were shot down and 12 of its soldiers were killed – along with more civilians who died during fighting in South Ossetia.
Russian fighter jets carried out up to five raids on mostly military targets around Gori – close to the conflict zone in South Ossetia – but at least one bomb is thought to have hit an apartment, killing five civilians, according to reports.
The Foreign Office upgraded its travel advice to urge against all but essential travel to Georgia. Foreign Secretary David Miliband was under mounting pressure to consider breaking off his summer holiday to tackle the mounting crisis.
r Miliband, on holiday in Minorca, issued his first statement on the the affair late yesterday to call for a ceasefire ‘and for peace talks to start as soon as possible’.
He also announced that he was sending Sir Brian Fall, the Foreign Office representative for the South Caucasus, to Georgia as part of an EU peace mission.
Defence Minister Des Browne said a delegation of EU, US and Nato officials was flying to the Georgian capital ‘to broker a ceasefire’.
The move caps two days of faltering diplomatic activity, in which members of the United Nations Security Council have struggled to convene an emergency meeting.
Belgium’s UN Ambassador Jan Grauls, who chairs the 15-member council this month, had spoken to his Russian and American counterparts.
‘Depending on how much progress is made in these bilaterals, we will decide whether we can call a full council meeting,’ his spokesman said.
President Bush expressed alarm about the escalating conflict and called on Russia to respect Georgia’s territorial integrity.
In Beijing, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was seen to approach President Bush in the Olympic stadium, where they were attending the opening ceremony.
The Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said he witnessed a heated discussion between the two leaders.
‘The President and Mr Putin were in an animated conversation two seats in front of us and I imagine they had a few things on their agenda,’ he said.
Mr Putin later accused Georgia of seeking ‘bloody adventures’ and trying to drag other countries into a military conflict in South Ossetia.
‘Georgia’s aspiration to join Nato… is driven by its attempt to drag other nations and peoples into its bloody adventures,’ Mr Putin said during a meeting in the Russian city of Vladikavkaz, some of which was shown on TV.
Mr Putin defended Russia’s incursion into South Ossetia and urged Georgia to halt ‘aggression’ against the breakaway region.
‘From a legal point of view, Russia’s actions in South Ossetia are totally legitimate,’ said Putin, who flew to the city after attending the opening of the Olympics.
‘We urge the Georgian authorities to immediately stop their aggression against South Ossetia, to stop all violations of all standing agreements on a ceasefire and to respect the legal rights and interests of other people.’
Soon afterwards the US, Nato and the EU called for an immediate end to the fighting and the UN Security Council convened a tense emergency session to try to prevent all-out war.
Georgian forces say they have fought off attacks by Abkhazian separatists, backed by Russian air raids, in the Kodori Gorge region.
Russian forces invaded Abkhazia hours after taking control of most of South Ossetia, said President Saakashvili.
As the conflict escalated rapidly, Mr Saakashvili said his country had formally moved to a state of war and offered an immediate ceasefire.
He said Moscow had been planning the assault for months, accused Russia of actions similar to Stalin’s invasion of Finland in 1939 and said ‘the entire post-Cold War order of Europe and the world is at stake’.
Foreign journalists witnessed an air attack on the town of Gori early yesterday morning and the Georgian government claimed Russian bombers had ‘completely devastated’ the Black Sea port of Poti.
Russia has reportedly started to bomb civil and economic infrastructure, including the military base at Senaki. Up to 11 Russian jets reportedly hit container tanks and a shipbuilding plant at Poti.
Moscow has announced it would send reinforcements into South Ossetia and President Dmitry Medvedev has pledged to ‘force the Georgian side to peace’.
Colonel Igor Konashenkov, a Russian infantry officer, said units of the 58th army had arrived in Tskhinvali overnight and would seek to ‘establish peace. Additional ‘special units’ would arrive ‘in the next few hours’.
Columns of Russian tanks plunged the two neighbours into war as they filed into South Ossetia yesterday, marking the Kremlin’s first military assault on foreign soil since the Afghanistan intervention, which ended in 1989.
South Ossetia won de-facto independence in a war that ended in 1992 but has been a source of tension ever since.
Russian peacekeepers have suffered 15 dead and 150 wounded, the peacekeeping forces were quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.
‘Now our peacekeepers are waging a fierce battle with regular forces from the Georgian army in the southern region of Tskhinvali,’ a representative of the Russian force was quoted as saying by Interfax.
Lyudmila Ostayeva, 50, who fled with her family to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia, said: ‘I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings and in cars. It’s impossible to count them now.’
The greatest mismatch in history of war
Georgia’s war with Russia is a David and Goliath battle that, military experts say, the Black Sea state has no chance of winning.
The Georgians are outnumbered and outgunned in every department. Russia has about 697,000 troops, while Georgia has only 19,500 full-time regulars.
And with Russia’s 1,200 combat aircraft confronting Georgia’s seven outmoded support planes, and 6,000 tanks against 100 ageing machines, there is no contest.
Matthew Clements, Eurasia editor for Jane’s Defence journal, said last night: ‘The Georgian military cannot withstand a full Russian assault.
‘The Russians have total air superiority and their coordinated operation gives the Georgians no chance of resisting.’
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I’m not one to advocate a new war. However, don’t we owe the Georgians more than just a few harsh words directed at Putin? I mean, they jumped up to help and support us in Iraq. Hell, I know there were different economic considerations but we sure seemed to jump all over Iraq when they invaded Kuwait in the early 90’s.
August 10th, 2008 at 7:57 pmI don’t think overt US involvement is wise. But, if lots of Russian boats, planes and tanks start exploding under strange circumstances, well, wouldn’t that be a bitch. I dunno but lots of young Russians getting killed in an Afghan style quagmire might be just what the doc ordered in terms of getting Putin kicked out of office.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:07 pmThe American Movie Channel showed “The Hunt for Red October” today. One of my favorite (unglamorous) lines is when Fred Thompson, who plays the admiral of an American aircraft carrier, says something like, “A Ruskie doesn’t take a dump without a plan.”
How long did Russia plan to attack Georgia?
August 10th, 2008 at 8:07 pmFuck it … send up the F-18s and take out their MiGs, then send in the Warthogs to demolish their armour. Send the cruise missles into the mountains to close the mountain pass. Tell the Ukraine to go ahead and cut off the regress of the Russian boats in the Black Sea to cut off their resupply. Tell Putin to go shit in his hat, the Russians were NEVER going to help us with Iran anyway.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:32 pmGiven how fast Russia mobilized their Armour and Logistics into Georgia, it’s suspicious to me as to whether or not Russia instigated this entire episode, ie. “the mortar round hitting the Russian Peace-Keeper’s barracks 10 days ago”.
Russia got their “shit”, “in mass” into Georgia so fucking quickly I can’t help but surmise that the Ruskies were planning for this to happen.
Don’t sell short what the murdering bastard Vladimir Putin (former KGB colonel) is capable of this.
PS - Oh yeah, don’t kid yourself…Putin’s still running the show.
August 10th, 2008 at 8:47 pmWe should at the very least do what we did in the Yom Kippur War, and send them lots a war materiel. We could also send a big message by putting a CVBG in the Black Sea.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:13 pmAssuming a cease-fire cannot be brokered in a timely fashion, the United States would be forced to confront and reconcile a pair of competing strategic interests: the desire to assuage Russian concerns over U.S. encroachment and dampen the simmering tensions between the two nations on the one hand, and the desire to support an ally in a vital geo-strategic region against an unhelpful world actor and former enemy on the other. And if abandoning Georgia is unacceptable in lieu of that nation’s cooperation with the United States in Iraq, risking the possible military stand-off with Russia is equally so.
August 10th, 2008 at 9:42 pmhttp://threatswatch.org/rapidrecon/2008/08/georgia-and-russia-collide-in/
This conflict was being prepared by Russia since before 2006.Heres an article republished from Nov 2006 in the Washington Post warning of Putins intents:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/08/AR2008080803336.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
“Finally, the United States should continue engaging Russia. From the threat of Islamic extremism to China’s military build-up, the self-interests of the United States and Russia intersect. Neither country should lose sight of this.”
that’s why the response is and will be “words”
and yes this russian intervention was prepared for a long time, just that Putin waited for the opportunity, the georgian president gave him it on a silver plate.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:20 amWe get Iran, you get Georgia.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:26 amSteve in NC, I think that’s the real deal there
August 11th, 2008 at 3:29 amJust a month ago inteligence sources in Tsjetsjenia had warned about planned invasion of Russia in Georgia. Russia had been concentrating their forces on the Georgian borders since months… this is just the last act of this show.
NATO should already be there at least to protect GEORGIAN airspace.
It’s all EU fault what is happening now! Was Georgia granted a month ago a promis of NATO membership, this would never happend. - It’s all thanks to France and Germany.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:39 amIf Russia hadn’t interfered with the situation 3000 of dead civilians we have now would be dwarfed by Georgian genocide. Ossetians and Georgians have a long hatred against each other. If Georgians occupy Ossetia terrible atrocities will occur.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:43 amThis would be the perfect time for Isreal to bomb the hell out of the Iranian Nuke sites.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:50 am
deathstar
August 11th, 2008 at 3:55 amExactly fly over a few B-2 tell the Georgians to make it look like they’re flying raids, and then blow the hell out of some Russians. Best part is tat the Georgians will be happy to take the blame. lol
Georgian public appeal to world community
We are the young democratic country with an ancient European traditions.
In our country there is war! Russia’s aggression has no boundaries. Today, the bombing exposed the civilian population of Georgia throughout the country. Along with the Russian military, the Russian media declared war too. The country imposed martial law. We don’t know what will happen tomorrow. Tomorrow must be a peaceful day! Victory for Peace!
We must achieve peace together! We are part of a unified world community!
Let’s stop Russia! In this century we might be the first, but you will be the next! We should not repeat the historical mistakes. When Europe is passive, Russia becomes aggressive and reactive..
Supporting Georgia is the salvation of European civilization!
Remember:
The occupation of Ukraine by Russia - 1650s
Russia - Crimea - 1783
Russia - Poland - 1795
Russia - Eastern Georgia - September 21, 1801; April 1802
Russia – Georgia (1810-1864)
Mass murdering of 1 Million Caucasians by Russia - 1859-1880
Russia - Japan - 1905-1905
Russia -Poland - 1920
Russia - Azerbaijan - 1920
Russia - Armenia - 1920
Russia - Poland -1939
Russia - Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia - 1940
Russia (USSR) - Finland - 1940
Russia (USSR) - Hungary - 1956
Russia (USSR) - Czechoslovakia - 1968
Russia (USSR) - Afghanistan - 1979-1989
Russia - Georgia - 1919, 1920 (April-May), 1921, 1924, 1991-93
Russia - Georgia - August 2008………………………………… ????????????
Russia -………………..?
http://www.occupation.tspteam.com/
http://www.kvacha.com/
August 11th, 2008 at 4:04 amKvacha, shen genacvale brat,
rac ufro meti shegvidzlia imdeni movawodot informacia am xalxs , arc ician sadaa zogma saqartvelo, da erti rozhaa saprangetidan tu kanadeli da imena rusebis shemogzavnilia es dedamotynuli…gamamwara gandonma
>>>Alkid
August 11th, 2008 at 6:22 amIf Russia hadn’t interfered with the situation 3000 of dead civilians we have now would be dwarfed by Georgian genocide. Ossetians and Georgians have a long hatred against each other. If Georgians occupy Ossetia terrible atrocities will occur >>>> so bombing georgian civilians is just aOK according to your logic, so georgians are bloody murderers, all they want is to kill , right?? and russian , ha, how dare i say something about russians, they are angles…what are u talking about, that 200,000 death toll in chechnya was inflicted by the chechens themselves, right???? no the massive carpet bombing by russian MLRSs and air force, yea grozny is a perfect example for showing russian compassion…im not gonna start on how this current conflict was perpetuated, but when your citizens are being bombed by some terrorist separatist fuckheads that hide behind the civilians like in lebanon you do what you have to to ensure their total destruction, not the civz that is, the fuckheads … the point is russia is having hard time winning the ground war is exact the reason why they are bombing the civilian target all over the georgia…fuck russia and whoever is against georgia !
If Russia gets control of the oil pipeline and they apply more pressure on the US economy by driving prices up again, it might be payback time.
Putin has waited a long time for this.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:49 amMore on the Russian attempts to bomb the BTC Pipeline, which is the only major conduit for Caucasian-Central Asian resources not under Russian control:
Georgia: Russia targets key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles
Russian jets targeted a key oil pipeline with over 50 missiles in a weekend bombing raid in Georgia that raised fears the conflict will tighten Moscow’s stranglehold on Europe’s energy supplies.
By Damien McElroy in Rustavi, Georgia Last Updated: 6:22AM BST 11 Aug 2008
“Deep craters pockmark the landscape south of the Georgian capital Tblisi in a Y-shaped pattern straddling the British-operated pipeline.
The attack left two deep holes less than 100 yards either side of a pressure vent on the pipeline. Shrapnel of highly engineered munitions litters the area.
There was no visible damage to the pipeline.
Local police recorded 51 strikes. “I have no doubt they wanted to target the pipeline, there is nothing else here,” said Giorgi Abrahamisvili, a policeman who witnessed the attack.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2534767/Georgia-Russia-targets-key-oil-pipeline-with-over-50-missiles.html
August 11th, 2008 at 9:45 amhow can this be, 2 Georgians that have a different approach
“When Europe is passive, Russia becomes aggressive and reactive..”
yeah, I agree that Europe hasn’t shown her nose too much, ya know why, because her policy is mainly aligned on the US one ; for sometimes, Putin was the “good guy” that we ought not to embarass, he was helpful in the jihadists watches.
Giorgi, the Chechnya problem was mainly of jihadists watches, nuthin to compare with Ossetians’
August 11th, 2008 at 10:02 am“…Europe hasn’t shown her nose too much, ya know why, because her policy is mainly aligned on the US one ..”
Yeah right. Europe is always at the forefront of ‘policy’.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:05 amWhat a load of cow shit.
what an idiot statment, it’s diplomatic approach
August 11th, 2008 at 11:07 amActually, if one studies Russia’s recent conflicts with Chechnya and Georgia, they are remarkably similar to one another. Both the second Chechen war and the current war in Georgia were instigated by Putin and his cronies under manufactured pretexts.
As for the Salafist-jihadism in Chechnya, this is a relatively new development/phenomenon in what has been a lengthy ethno-nationalist conflict. It wasn’t until the late 1990s that the Islamists managed to co-opt the rebellion and re-package it as an individual theater of war within the greater Global Jihad.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:09 amyeah sure.
August 11th, 2008 at 11:12 amwtf do you know about “diplomatic approach”?
much more than you do, it’s my second nature
August 11th, 2008 at 11:17 am
August 11th, 2008 at 11:27 amtrash talk is ‘diplomacy’ only in france.
to french.
nah, you know why, you repproach so many times our “superior education”, faire des ronds de jambes, c’est ce que Louis XIV nous a legué
August 11th, 2008 at 11:33 am“superior education”
What superior education? You claimed to be a literary giant on the other thread, a big reader, yet you didn’t recognize a famous quote in a very famous franch book from a very famous french author . In French yet!
You thought I was complimenting you!
Here’s another for you:
“La splendeur humaine, est très dangereuse, si nous croyons les témoignages de presque tout le philosophers.”
Vous parlez pour s’agrandir.
No fair using google or wiki now!!
Lecture us on diplomacy some more poser.
August 11th, 2008 at 12:03 pmMike in Va, the first chechen war was instigated by Boris Elsine that needed to show to his people how Russia was still a great nation that could subjugate rebels ; he had to resign.
Then the islamists took power in Chechenia, Putin had to finish the job It looks more like GWB that wanted to finish his father’job in Irak.
Effectively Putin instigated also the 2nd cheche war and the today Georgia war, but that is the alone similitue
August 11th, 2008 at 12:10 pm“superior education”, I knew that would irritate you , touché
one more time you dispace the point, superior education as “dancers was ment, and “ronds de james” means bowing reverence
hey where is your superior french ?
You claimed to be a literary giant on the other thread, a big reader,
never said so, you asked for my last “read” books, I provided you a list of some
yet you didn’t recognize a famous quote in a very famous franch book from a very famous french author . In French yet!,
can you recall it, cause you were rather “shiting” on me then, than talking litterature
You thought I was complimenting you
never thought that, your too perfid and too “superior” to let me suppose to
if you think it’s because of my reflexion, about you for being nice at once, then your owned, you definitely don’t understand when I cheat you or not
August 11th, 2008 at 12:33 pmidiot
bob and weave all you like
August 11th, 2008 at 12:38 pmyou’re the one that’s Pwned
what a dumbass you are
your so creative papamerde,
uh where is that french sentence ????
DF
August 11th, 2008 at 12:44 pmfind it yourself
no comment on the one i posted above?
it’s the same author
you’re such a poser… just like the rest of your country
you french condescend to the rest of the world to hide your own iniquity.
oops…here..let me save you a few clicks… Noun 1. iniquity - absence of moral or spiritual values
August 11th, 2008 at 1:13 pm“maintenant pas de probleme pour trouver de l’empathie pour les palestiniens”
gros sac-à-merde, tu n’as que ça comme argument ?
August 11th, 2008 at 1:24 pmvas te faire voir chez les chèvres
le condescendant au reste de l’hummanité c’est toi et ton pseudo-intellectuallisme, pôve rat
August 11th, 2008 at 1:29 pmre-response, 1er point :
Ils sont devenus pro-yankee depuis quelques années, cependant tu ne leveras pas le petit doigt pour eux, ils vont certainement être déçus,tu veux seulement nous en donner la responsabilité et jeter le blame sur EU. C’est ça ta grand morale
August 11th, 2008 at 1:31 pmerm… you re the wrong quote
i was talking about……
“La splendeur humaine, est très dangereuse, si nous croyons les témoignages de presque tout le philosophers.”
…and then i told you that you….
Vous parlez pour s’agrandir.
As for the rest…well, you’ve no ground to lecture on diplomacy so it CERTAINLY would follow that would apply at least equally to morals therefore….. GFY.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:52 pmSully tu as écrit tes phrases dans un français approximatif, c’est pourquoi elles ne m’ont rien suggéré au niveau “textes”
cependant je pense que ça ressemble à du Pascal
vous parlez pour VOUS agrandir,
s’agrandir est incorrect, “s’” en fait un verbe pronominal, ce qui n’a aucun sens ici
quant à ton intention, ok, peut-être qu’elle me concerne, mais elle te concerne encore plus, car c’est toi qui veut démontrer que tu m’es “supérieur”
je ne t’ai pas “lecturé” comme tu dis, mais “plaisanté” et donné l’exemple de la danse, cependant tu as pris encore une fois la “mouche”
tu ne sais pas “rire”, ou seulement des autres
tu es un méchant petit homme prétentieux GFY
August 11th, 2008 at 2:10 pm….as for the rest of your diatribe… little old ‘not a professor’ me, Pwned you on ‘literature’ from an author any french high schooler should know.
August 11th, 2008 at 2:40 pmbon je vais procéder comme un limier, c’est-à-dire que je vais essayer de me souvenir quels sont les auteurs français que vous connaissez bien, en premier lieu, Victor Hugo me vient l’esprit : “splendeur et décadence d’une courtisane”
c’est aussi un auteur que l’on a largement étudié, que je trouvais un peu ennuyeux, je préferre Maupassant , Gustave Flaubert, Stendhal
t’es un peu vieux, mais pas professeur, c’est ça ? t’as le tempérament d’un directeur d’école, d’où la méchanceté et la perfidie ; ce genre de personne aime bien rabaisser les auutres, je me trompe ?
August 11th, 2008 at 3:08 pmNein Frau franchie. You are still mistaken on all counts.
Being a fan of history myself, I do like Flaubert though….
“It is ignorance of history which causes us to libel our own times. People have always been like this.” - Flaubert
How will you know where you’re going if you don’t know where you’ve been?
Or, as that inimitable philosopher Pink Floyd put it…
“How can you have any pudding if you don’t eat your meat?
August 11th, 2008 at 4:39 pmça ne passe pas
August 11th, 2008 at 5:40 pmok
ce n’est pas un auteur contemporain, mais un auteur “classique”, or il y a peu de philosophes ou d’écrivains classiques du 17e 18e, à part les auteurs pour le théâtre.
August 11th, 2008 at 5:41 pm2-
August 11th, 2008 at 5:41 pmsi c’est un philosophe, qui n’est pas Pascal, il n’est sûrement pas JJ Rousseau non plus, je ne pense pas que ce soit Voltaire, il aimait trop les bonnes choses, donc c’est soit un philosophe ou un auteur du 19e ou de la 1e moitié du 20e siècle. Bergson ne m’inspire pas non plus, peut-être Auguste Comte, mais ça m’étonnerait que tu t’intéresses à lui, alors c’est quelqu’un du 20e siècle, peut-être Merleau-Ponty ou Jean Rostand, certainement pas Sartre ni Camus
re- ça ne passe pas
August 11th, 2008 at 5:45 pmqui c’est ?
j’ai marché ans ton jeu, tu peux me donner le gateau maintenat
August 11th, 2008 at 5:48 pmBush’s famous remark in 2001 that he’d looked into Putin’s eyes and gained “a sense of his soul.” McCain sees something different: “I looked into his eyes and saw three letters: a K, a G and a B.”
August 11th, 2008 at 5:50 pmsully, j’aurais pensé que “Splendeur et décadence d’une courtisanne” était ton perfide choix
August 11th, 2008 at 5:54 pmAnd Time magazine picked KGB thug Putin over General David Patraeus :roll:…….
what a f*cking joke….
August 11th, 2008 at 5:59 pmAnd Time magazine picked KGB thug Putin over General David Patraeus as Man of the Year in 2007…what a f*cking joke…
August 11th, 2008 at 6:00 pmaw c’mon franchie…. you’ve got the era right!
August 11th, 2008 at 6:08 pmIt’s a novel from probably one of the most famous of the french ‘philosophers’!
A favorite of our Thomas Jefferson.
“Liberty of thought is the life of the soul.”
“j’aurais pensé que “Splendeur et décadence d’une courtisanne” était ton perfide choix ”
Might just be…
August 11th, 2008 at 6:11 pmMontesquieu “Lettres Persannes”,
j’ai d’abord pensé à lui, puis j’ai trouvé que la phrase était un peu trop moralisane, mais ça convient bien à la critique de la vie parisienne du XVIIIe siècle de ces lettres
August 11th, 2008 at 6:31 pmnon.
August 11th, 2008 at 7:06 pmnot Montesquieu.
finally, it must be this good old Voltaire, though I forgot that he also wrote “novels”, then for you I would say that you choose “le songe de Plton”, it can’t be his famous philosophical tales “Zadig, Candide or Micromégas” !
if it is a philo tlale, then “Micromégas” would be one of Jefferson’s
August 12th, 2008 at 2:57 amAw franchie… to go all this time to finally get the author right and still miss the work. tsk tsk. It was Candide.
August 12th, 2008 at 8:52 amSorta puts the lie to your ‘reading’ list eh? Missing the most famous of the french philosophers.
It was your Voltaire who warned us that “Opinion has caused more trouble on this globe than floods or earthquakes.”
What are you left with in a world without absolutes franchie?
6+ billion ‘opinions’.
sully, I really though of Voltaire, though believed it would be too easy from you, he’s been our favorite “impossible” quote a few times.
Now, I haven’t read Voltaire since high school, he became less interesting than my art purposes
and now, if you haven’t yet read what I set in a lost topic there it is (not quite away from Voltaire) :
You seem to believe that for me there aren’t superior values that are worth of fighting for.
Yes, there are : PATRIOTISM, freedom of thought, of writing, of religion.
I don’t want to add freedom of speech, this is the difference with your country. If we want that a “relative” peace rules our social activities, we keep from hurting or insulting our “com-patriot” neighbours. This is what I call sometimes my euphemism. I do practice it a lot, french deformation culturelle !
Though we must fight for liberty for the whole communauty. Everyone should be able and allowed to have his/her own interpretation of religiosity.
Voltaire did, Zola did…
Though the idea of freedom should not be a value with different levels according to one’s communauty interpretation, but a higher ideal, that also should be guaranted by our State laws.
The political appreciations are inherent to one’s country history -ours had a different evolution than yours- It has always had a more “collective” adventure - the Revolution didn’t think of an individual adventure, but of a state adventure with a “moral” mission : bring liberty, egality, fraternity to the world nations. While the “american dream” was and is an individual dream. If I wanted, as a citizen of the 18th century, to choose an individual adventure, then, I would have probably chosen your country as a patry.
Now, I am born in France, a social democraty, it would be “suicidaire” of me to fight for a political system that is of your historical experience. My attention focuses more then on the respect of the legacity and justice.
hey, Sully, it was your country’s opinion on the world that did the mess from the last quater of 20th century
August 12th, 2008 at 9:19 amsully, I really though of Voltaire, though believed it would be too easy from you, he’s been our favorite “impossible” quote a few times.
Now, I haven’t read Voltaire since high school, he became less interesting than my art purposes
and now, if you haven’t yet read what I set in a lost topic there it is (not quite away from Voltaire) : (next page)
August 12th, 2008 at 9:22 amYou seem to believe that for me there aren’t superior values that are worth of fighting for.
Yes, there are : PATRIOTISM, freedom of thought, of writing, of religion.
I don’t want to add freedom of speech, this is the difference with your country. If we want that a “relative” peace rules our social activities, we keep from hurting or insulting our “com-patriot” neighbours. This is what I call sometimes my euphemism. I do practice it a lot, french deformation culturelle !
Though we must fight for liberty for the whole communauty. Everyone should be able and allowed to have his/her own interpretation of religiosity.
Voltaire did, Zola did…
Though the idea of freedom should not be a value with different levels according to one’s communauty interpretation, but a higher ideal, that also should be guaranted by our State laws.
The political appreciations are inherent to one’s country history -ours had a different evolution than yours- It has always had a more “collective” adventure - the Revolution didn’t think of an individual adventure, but of a state adventure with a “moral” mission : bring liberty, egality, fraternity to the world nations. While the “american dream” was and is an individual dream. If I wanted, as a citizen of the 18th century, to choose an individual adventure, then, I would have probably chosen your country as a patry.
Now, I am born in France, a social democraty, it would be “suicidaire” of me to fight for a political system that is of your historical experience. My attention focuses more then on the respect of the legacity and justice.
hey, Sully, it was your country’s opinion on the world that did the mess from the last quater of 20th century
August 12th, 2008 at 9:22 amsully, I really though of Voltaire, though believed it would be too easy from you, he’s been our favorite “impossible” quote a few times.
Now, I haven’t read Voltaire since high school, he became less interesting than my art purposes
and now, if you haven’t yet read what I set in a lost topic there it is (not quite away from Voltaire) :
You seem to believe that for me there aren’t superior values that are worth of fighting for.
Yes, there are : PATRIOTISM, freedom of thought, of writing, of religion.
I don’t want to add freedom of speech, this is the difference with your country. If we want that a “relative” peace rules our social activities, we keep from hurting or insulting our “com-patriot” neighbours. This is what I call sometimes my euphemism. I do practice it a lot, french deformation culturelle !
Though we must fight for liberty for the whole communauty. Everyone should be able and allowed to have his/her own interpretation of religiosity.
Voltaire did, Zola did…
Though the idea of freedom should not be a value with different levels according to one’s communauty interpretation, but a higher ideal, that also should be guaranted by our State laws.
The political appreciations are inherent to one’s country history -ours had a different evolution than yours- It has always had a more “collective” adventure - the Revolution didn’t think of an individual adventure, but of a state adventure with a “moral” mission : bring liberty, egality, fraternity to the world nations. While the “american dream” was and is an individual dream. If I wanted, as a citizen of the 18th century, to choose an individual adventure, then, I would have probably chosen your country as a patry.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:24 amYou seem to believe that for me there aren’t superior values that are worth of fighting for. Yes, there are : PATRIOTISM, freedom of thought, of writing, of religion.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:26 amI don’t want to add freedom of speech, this is the difference with your country. If we want that a “relative” peace rules our social activities, we keep from hurting or insulting our “com-patriot” neighbours. This is what I call sometimes my euphemism. I do practice it a lot, french deformation culturelle !
Though we must fight for liberty for the whole communauty. Everyone should be able and allowed to have his/her own interpretation of religiosity. Voltaire did, Zola did…
August 12th, 2008 at 9:29 amThough the idea of freedom should not be a value with different levels according to one’s communauty interpretation, but a higher ideal, that also should be guaranted by our State laws.
-ours had a different evolution than yours- It has always had a more “collective” adventure - the Revolution didn’t think of an individual adventure, but of a state adventure with a “moral” mission : bring liberty, egality, fraternity to the world nations. While the “american dream” was and is an individual dream. If I wanted, as a citizen of the 18th century, to choose an individual adventure, then, I would have probably chosen your country as a patry.
Though we must fight for liberty for the whole communauty. Everyone should be able and allowed to have his/her own interpretation of religiosity. Voltaire did, Zola did…
Though the idea of freedom should not be a value with different levels according to one’s communauty interpretation, but a higher ideal, that also should be guaranted by our State laws.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:31 amThe political appreciations are inherent to one’s country history -ours had a different evolution than yours- It has always had a more “collective” adventure - the Revolution didn’t think of an individual adventure, but of a state adventure with a “moral” mission : bring liberty, egality, fraternity to the world nations. While the “american dream” was and is an individual dream. If I wanted, as a citizen of the 18th century, to choose an individual adventure, then, I would have probably chosen your country as a patry.
August 12th, 2008 at 9:34 am… you know where to find the following piece
hey, Sully, it was your country’s opinion on the world that did the mess from the last quater of 20th century
August 12th, 2008 at 9:39 am“..I really though of Voltaire”
yeah…. OK
“Now, I haven’t read Voltaire since high school..”
That’s why I gave you the high school ‘hint’.
August 12th, 2008 at 10:00 amAnd with no disrespect intended, your argument that you think “PATRIOTISM, freedom of thought, of writing, of religion” to be “superior values that are worth of fighting for” rings false without Voltaire as your principle guiding force.
More importantly however, you leave OUT of your “superior values” any concept of good and evil. Are those supposed to be relative to the individual and whatever they might ‘feel’? None of the superior values you mentioned seem particularly helpful toward determining the ‘right’ thing to do in any instance.
In and of itself, with no regard for anything else going on in the world, was Russia attacking Georgia a ‘good’ thing or an ‘evil’ thing?
(for our purposes let’s describe evil as ‘morally reprehensible’)
And thanks for indulging me.
I think, my laptop is messing, sorry
August 12th, 2008 at 10:01 am“.. the Revolution didn’t think of an individual adventure, but of a state adventure with a “moral” mission : bring liberty, egality, fraternity to the world nations. ”
The ‘Collectiveness’ of french culture and politics is duly noted. How has the “state adventure” worked out for you?
August 12th, 2008 at 10:12 amAnd “liberty” of what? Individuals? No?
Yeah… that’s a common misconception about france. That it is a ‘free’ society. Much like parts of Canada these days. And ‘American’ politicians like Obama that are fond of state mandated ‘rights’.
with no disrespect intended, your argument that you think “PATRIOTISM, freedom of thought, of writing, of religion” to be “superior values that are worth of fighting for” rings false without Voltaire as your principle guiding force.
Votaire live in the context of kingdom that released the “edit de Nantes”, and set up the religions antagonism
now, if he’d lived today, he wouldn’t be able to hold the same purpose on our ethnical particularities, though he would probably be an atheist, but a diplomat one, remember how he could manipulate words, this man was clever enough to manage his path through the “jet-set” and settle at the Switzerland border, that avoided him lots of problems.
fla suite dans un prochain episode (my laptop!!!)
August 12th, 2008 at 10:13 amNone of the superior values you mentioned seem particularly helpful toward determining the ‘right’ thing to do in any instance.
what do you mean ? again
“c’est b^o de se battre pour des principes”, my response to you, though seems that your country forget them today with Georgia
In and of itself, with no regard for anything else going on in the world, was Russia attacking Georgia a ‘good’ thing or an ‘evil’ thing?
in an absolute ideal world, NO, though you can’t forget the political raisons why they made that decision. I am afraid to tell you that your country is a big part of the problem. (since the Clinton administration)
August 12th, 2008 at 10:31 amI gave my raisons on another topic, further ( Bush’s discourse I think)
The ‘Collectiveness’ of french culture and politics is duly noted. How has the “state adventure” worked out for you?
not too bad, I guess, I am free to go wherever I want, write whatever I want, practice or not practice a religion and still be considered by my compatriots… though we must pay taxes, more on a collective basis, a single paper suffice
But you do pay taxes too, to different administrations, your own state, the federation…
if you put them altogether, you would be surprised that it costs you more than by us at the end.
I am not avocating that our system is the right one, but it fonctions here, and most of the people find it fine.
hehe, the principles are something that take off your nice sleeping beauty time off
August 12th, 2008 at 11:00 amJeez… three posts to obfuscate the question How do you determine “the ‘right’ thing to do in any instance.”
August 12th, 2008 at 11:13 amand you ?
when you bring your s…bag, I know how to react, simple
Because I do know that your being not nice then, ok, insinct for surviving or impulsion ??? so far, there haven’t been irreparable consequences
but if you s… purposely on me, and if you think that this is the right thing you ought to do… then, it’s a right thing for me either to behave the same
in another era, we could solve our fightings within a dual, pistols or swords… well, then you won’t even know me, I would hide in my bourgeoise kitchen
August 12th, 2008 at 11:28 am“Votaire live in the context of kingdom…”
You do as well. You just get to ‘elect’ him/her.
Again, “liberty” for whom? The state?
“.. he [Voltaire] would probably be an atheist…”
Uh, no. He was anti-cleric. Not anti-theism.
Me: “…was Russia attacking Georgia a ‘good’ thing or an ‘evil’ thing?”
You: “in an absolute ideal world, NO…”
On what basis would you say that it is ‘morally reprehensible’?
“not too bad, I guess, I am free to go wherever I want, write whatever I want”
What if what you want to say might be considered ‘hurtful’ to either the state or another person?
August 12th, 2008 at 11:31 amYou do as well. You just get to ‘elect’ him/her.
that’s right, though with no divin power, the president (in democraties) has to respond in front of the parliament or a trial for his choices, not a king of that era
Again, “liberty” for whom?
for the individuals of course, (I thought having said that above) The state? must guarnties that “liberty” don’t get biased by any corporation or thnical group
yeah, he was theist, though with the scientific progesses that we had since, he might also have become atheist, for in his times, it was kinda of dangerous not to advocate a “God” faith
“morally reprehensible” regarding our “revolution” principle, “liberty, egality, fraternity” that the people ought to benefit for organasing their rules in their motherland, though if they do not respect “egality” for their own people then there is a fraternity dilemn break, that is the opened door to conflict
What if what you want to say might be considered ‘hurtful’ to either the state or another person?
not being provocative when we know that our purposes hurt or insult one’s sensibility and faith ; it doesn’t implies that we have also to let these persons walking over our rules. fermeté dans la sérénité !
otherwise, I know that for a state, the sensibility is different for your country, you won’t let a person spit or burn on your patry symbols, while your freedom of speech allows you to say watever BS on a person, here in France, you can’t say wathever you want on a person, you are likely to be pursued to a trial, and if insulting our country was a major offence, then we would certainly be at war with you
August 12th, 2008 at 12:30 pm“I would hide in my bourgeoise kitchen ”
Since you know nothing of philosophy (not even french), nothing of history other than the revisionist history taught in a ‘collective’ society, no apparent cognizance of morality other than ‘feeling’ or ‘populism’ also expounded in a ‘collective’ society and you are unable to carry on a conversation about those things…… that might be where you should stay rather than a ‘right of center’ American blog poking Americans in the eye.
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/stars5501/frog.jpg
August 12th, 2008 at 12:41 pmhttp://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3367/shortvt5.jpg
vexé papy ?
I love America
August 12th, 2008 at 1:24 pmcette fois ce n’est pas le sac-à-merde, mais le sac-à-bile qui est percé
tu fais chier vieux tromblon qui veut me donner des leçons de philo ou de morale pour montrer quel singe savant tu es
ah elle est belle ta morale, foutre les bons alliés dans la merde et ne pas venir à leur secours !!!
August 12th, 2008 at 1:46 pmWhy thank you very much. Yes I do have beautiful morals. (it wasn’t necessary for you to say that in french.) Many of us here in America do base our concepts of right and wrong on something other than ‘feelings’, which is why I suspect you are so jealous of us and ‘love America yourself.
August 12th, 2008 at 2:10 pmThat’s not to say we’re by any means perfect. We are, however, fighting hard to avoid the systemic failure of EuroSocialist values and the inherent decline of politics and morality that a “collective” society like your own would bring to our own unique culture.
don’t thank me vieux perverse, but your a clever travesti
August 12th, 2008 at 2:52 pmSo… does that mean? …
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j97/stars5501/francais.gif
hmmmm????
August 12th, 2008 at 3:37 pmtranslation as requierred by sully
“this time this is the shit-bag that has a hole but hthe bile-bag
your a fuckin ol schnock that “beschiesst mir”, that wants to give me philo and moral lessons, just in case none didn’t notice how a more genious ape he is than me
BTW, your moral is so great that you let down one of your best alliee
August 12th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
August 12th, 2008 at 3:48 pmya get better papy ? some old red bull with a buddy, wise, in the corner
(how many you need ?)
so what are you gonna make to avoid your symetric failure, that aren’t only blah-blah
August 12th, 2008 at 4:00 pmI’m going to continue meaningful dialogue in as diplomatic a manner as I can muster with “collectivist” political/moral relativists like yourself that pretend to be ‘wise’ yet are unaware of Cicero’s admonition:
“The function of wisdom is to discriminate between good and evil.”
Now, you’ve continually told us how wise you are in all areas of diplomacy, history , philosophy, etc., etc. and I’ve thanked you for your indulgence so please tell me how you are able to do that.
Point to a particular philosopher or statesman or philosopher/statesman if necessary to help me to understand you when you make the kind of comments you make so I can better understand where you are ‘coming from’.
Let’s get started franchie. How about how you discriminate between empathy for ‘palestinians’ but not for Georgians?
August 12th, 2008 at 4:20 pmHow about how you discriminate between empathy for ‘palestinians’ but not for Georgians?
did I tell you “gehe beschiessen” already ?
do you have “real” words in your mouth that don’t come from
your quotations library ?
BTW you misunderstood “wise”, this was a word game with buddy weiser
I can’t see you can discrimate between the good or the evil, Uncle Georgie has many weird friends by the Saudi’s kingdom that are not well intentionned to your country, neither to the western world ; would you say that is wisely moral? yeah, I expect so from a pervert like you
you don’t need to understand where I come from anymore, youv statued it already, from an Euro-socialist-commies-moral-relatists-though-no-theocratic-wellfared-and-the most-beautiful-country. is t enough or you want more ?
August 12th, 2008 at 4:37 pm“is t enough or you want more ?”
Nah…. I’m good.
August 12th, 2008 at 4:42 pmgood at what ?
at self-inflating,
and at denigrating, and at displaying rumors and BS,
and at undermining your challengers in a vile manner
because your are a sad sire, poor school manager that has lots of complexes of inferiority that reports his bile on students and likely relations
But I find it funny to jaquass with you, and see yet many more qualities at the sentence “my taylor is rich”
August 12th, 2008 at 4:59 pmAwww… that’s sweet franchie. Though you should know by now that ad hominem will get you nowhere.
Can’t you see how it’s your lack of empathy for anyone but terrorists just makes you mad? You know it’s wrong. You just can’t stop. It’s like an addiction or something.
August 12th, 2008 at 5:30 pmThough you should know by now that ad hominem will get you nowhere.
do you mean that you have the power to close my entry here, yeah I bet you’d tried.
now, Im not interested in your propaganda, but there are Americans that are honest guis, not you
the rest of your assertion is as usual coming from your shit bag
August 13th, 2008 at 3:40 amok chouchou, I know that your gonna try to shut me up, it’s in your ability influence,
your were a fuckin “good” challenger with whom I made my trainings in fighting the bias
August 13th, 2008 at 4:15 amShut you up? You flatter yourself franchie. But you’re french and that’s what the french do.
August 13th, 2008 at 4:29 amI’ve been trying to get you to answer simple questions. But again, you’re french and that’s what the french can’t do.
That and distinguish right from wrong that is.
Can’t you see how it’s your lack of empathy for anyone
yeah your the proof of that, every thing that is french irritates you, though you nourrished yourself of french culture,
are you trying to absorb our spirit there to better conter-fight us ?
may-be, but you need to understand it, then empathy
can’t see your ego would allows you that
August 13th, 2008 at 4:54 amI’m empathetic.
August 13th, 2008 at 5:45 amJust not to you.
You are a french supremacist who has shown sympathy for palestinians in the past yet none for Georgians in this thread and, also in this thread, has ridiculed the American concept of individual liberty.
And those two are just ’starters’.
So it would be accurate to say that I hold your ‘views’ in contempt. But I also cannot respect you as the holder of those views because when asked to support them you can’t and you resort to ‘name-calling’.
blah blah blah, your a fuckin bad loser, that’s all
and your still travesting my purposes, though I am in use of that with you
your are the one that holds other nations or persons in contempt if they are not sucking your boots and tell you unbearable “objective truths”
August 13th, 2008 at 6:57 amLoser?
August 13th, 2008 at 7:16 amYeah… more revisionist history.
Loser?
Yeah… more revisionist history.
your wearing a flag instead of a brain, thus you still think your a mighty person, that that you should know by now that ad hominem will get you nowhere.
also revisionism is of your creation, but you can’t discern it in your illusions built tower
August 13th, 2008 at 8:06 amYeah yeah
August 13th, 2008 at 10:55 amit’s obvious you got nothing to offer but more bullshit
whatever,
August 13th, 2008 at 11:22 amyouv been my master, and I still have progess to make
understatement of the year award to you
August 13th, 2008 at 11:37 amI was sure you would give me that qualification, then see ya, im progressing in your business award
August 13th, 2008 at 11:54 ambuh bye poser…
August 13th, 2008 at 4:43 pmDostoyevsky??
They have no idea who the enemy is and if they can’t handle a war of words (which is actually FAR tamer than what went on in this country 200+ years ago)
what that would be if you were french
awwww c’mon darling, Dostoevsky or Dostoïevski is the same person, but I didn’t know Dostoyevsky
I wouldn’t recommand him for your moral, could be some depressive feeling overwelming you after
August 14th, 2008 at 3:06 amcoocoo darling, where are you ??????????????,
August 14th, 2008 at 7:34 am“I wouldn’t recommand him for your moral, could be some depressive feeling overwelming you after”
You know nothing about him.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:39 amno, of course if you say so, ya know that I don’t care, though he might have been a good inspirator for the pre-Malevitch painters
August 14th, 2008 at 7:47 amlol
August 14th, 2008 at 2:57 pmur a funny little poser
lol
your not a funny poser but a enfatuated one
that searches a châtiment, not likely like a crime, though
just to see your face when you meet a more posered superior
and what they quatches together ? “des histoires de poseurs”
if you stay “sage comme une image” I might tell you about the russian painting
August 14th, 2008 at 4:34 pmdream on
August 15th, 2008 at 4:51 amit’s a ‘joke’, you adore them I believe
my name is Voltaire
August 15th, 2008 at 5:38 amnow you’re just drunk
August 15th, 2008 at 8:06 amor high
put the hash pipe away
I don’t drink, but you likely do, please go on, cause when your fasting, your are loosing your bile
August 15th, 2008 at 9:56 am