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As America Clamors Over Socialist Healthcare, Canada Looks To Correct The Mistake of Socialist Healthcare



Sep 2, 2009 7 Comments ›› Erik Wong

canadacare

Med Broadcast:

EDMONTON – Alberta is taking the first step to overhaul its health laws – including redefining public care – but Health Minister Ron Liepert stresses the move is not a stalking horse to introduce more privatization.

“Some of our provincial legislation that guides our health-care system is around 100 years old, much of it designed around the system and not the patient,” Liepert said Tuesday.

“We need a system in place that moves the patient from the bottom of an organizational chart to the top.”

Liepert announced a 16-member panel of politicians, advocates, academics and health leaders that has three months to review how the province delivers medical care. The public will have its say through an interactive website.

He said he’ll make the findings public when he receives them in November.

The committee is tasked with finding a new way to define publicly funded health services under the terms of the Canada Health Act. It must also look for ways to make public services more accountable.

Liepert said it’s not intended as a back-door way to increase private delivery of services under a public health umbrella – long a hot-button issue in Alberta.

“This exercise is not about delisting services or privatizing our publicly funded health-care system,” he said.

“We are guided by the Canada Health Act, (but) I wish the federal government would start to take a look at it and say, ‘How relevant is it in its current form and does it need updating?”‘

He said it is another attempt by the province to look at what public health services are available and whether improvements can be made.

The review comes as Alberta wriggles in the vise-grip of a growing population and a $7-billion budget deficit.

Alberta Health Services, the provincewide board that delivers care, announced last week it is looking at voluntary retirements and further cost cuts to reduce a $1-billion deficit.

The committee will not address those problems, said Liepert.

“This isn’t a money-saving exercise.”

People who come up to him on the street are generally happy with health care, but unhappy with barriers to getting it, he added.

“In many cases it’s little stuff. I can’t tell you how many people have come up to me and said, ‘Can you please tell me why we have to go back to the doctor to get our prescription renewed?”‘

He bristled when asked by reporters if the committee will explore delisting public services.

“You folks love that word. Let’s start talking about A-listing,” he said.

Liepert noted there’s now more money for home care and the province has begun paying for midwifery services.

Fred Horne, an Edmonton Tory legislature member who will co-chair the committee, said members will focus on Alberta’s system, but draw on best practices from other countries.

“A number of the people around the table are quite well versed in international systems – as am I to a certain extent – so we’ll certainly take that into account,” said Horne.

Hugh MacDonald, health critic for the Opposition Liberals, dismissed the committee as a cynical public relations exercise.

He suggested it will allow the governing Tories to deflect criticism in the short term, and give them reasons to bring in more private-service delivery in the future.

“I think this government sees the Canada Health Act as a hindrance to what they would like to do with the health-care system – and that’s to increase the role of private clinics and to delist services,” he said.

The laws, MacDonald added, don’t need overhauling. “The only overhaul we need is this government’s direction to managing our public health system.”

The private delivery of public health services has long been a polarizing topic in Alberta.

A decade ago, government proposals under former premier Ralph Klein to expand private services led to raucous nightly protests by hundreds outside the legislature.

One night protesters vandalized the building, damaged the facing and doors and roughed up a security guard.


  • http://tvshogal.blogspot.com DangerGirl

    i m going to ignore this headline since it totally misrepresents this article and misrepresents whats really going on in Alberta and take the time to educate conservatives… cuz I don’t bother to educate liberals.. apparently they know it all :razz:

    We do NOT have a SOCIALIST health care system in Canada.

    At least 30% of Canadian health care is privately funded with most services delivered by private (both for-profit and not-for-profit) providers.

    while almost half of the U.S. system is publicly funded — for the poor (medicaid), seniors (medicare) and U.S. military.

    Neither system is purely “public” nor “private.”

    Private insurance is available in Canada for a LONG list of health care services. Just ask any employer!! The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the Quebec government cannot prevent people from paying for private insurance for healthcare procedures covered under medicare. So yes WE DO HAVE OPTIONS!!

    This alleged “socialist” healthcare system Americans keep insisting exists in Canada doesn’t cover (a) prescription drugs (b) extra nursing care (c) physiotherapy (d) timely post-operative rehab (e) a nursing home bed or (f) a growing number of medications, tests, treatments and procedures which our governments are delisting almost daily in a bid to cut costs. This would NOT happen if Canada DID have a SOCIALIST HEALTHCARE System. But we don’t and so it does.

    However, Canadians by an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY REFUSE to change the Health Care system. They will vote ANY politician OUT of office who DARES to even THINK about turning the Canadian H.C.system into a fully privatized system.

    This article makes it clear that Alberta has NO intention of trying to go that route. Considering that Alberta experimented the most with increasing the role of the private sector in health care…its rather clear that experiment didn’t go as well as some Conservatives believed it would.

    Eric Wong’s headline that “Canada tries to correct the mistake of Socialist Healthcare” is not just misleading.. its an OUT AND OUT LIE.

    Given the demonization of Canadian health care in the U.S., it’s worth noting Americans pay more for it than Canadians per capita (US $6,700 compared to US $3,700) and as a percentage of GDP (15% versus 10%).

    While comparing the effectiveness of the two systems is controversial and its true the U.S. outperforms Canada in some areas — average life expectancy in Canada is slightly higher and infant mortality rates slightly lower.

    So much for our National Healthcare system being radically inferior.

    I should mention that a good many companies offer healthcare package that includes prescription drugs,massages, chiropractic care, dental and eye care coverage. So Canadians aren’t left out in the cold when it comes to affordable access to those services not covered by Health Canada.

    In Canada, there can be excessive wait times for SOME treatments but its NOT THE NORM however the continual delisting of drugs and services from medicare is pissing off Canadians.

    But urgent patients receiving immediate access, the least urgent wait longer. It makes sense. In a triage situation.. doctors always treat the urgent patients first!

    Average wait times for diagnostic services such as MRI and CAT scans: two weeks with 89% of the people waiting less than 3 months.

    Average wait time to see a specialist: approx 4 weeks with over 86% waiting less then 3 months.

    Avg wait time for surgery: approx 4 weeks with about 80% waiting less than 3 months.

    In the U.S., patients on Medicaid can wait THREE MONTHS or more to see specialists.

    In the U.S., 45 million Americans have no medical insurance and those that do often have legitimate claims rejected by private insurers.

    Wasteful spending in BOTH the public and private sectors plagues BOTH countries.

    In Canada we can chose ANY doctor we want.

    Contrary to crap Americans are fed – doctors in Canada DO NOT work for the Gov’t. They’re private contractors who bill the government for the services they provide to patients.

    In Ontario, like other provinces, fees are set by the government – in consultation with doctors – in order to keep overall costs to the system down. My doctor earns a VERY nice income!!

    The total amount that individual doctors can bill the government plan each year is also capped to keep them from “cheating” the system by setting up a volume practice; that is, encouraging, and then charging for, “unnecessary” appointments by patients. A practice that happens frequently in the US.. contributing to rising insurance and healthcare costs!

    One of the big challenges facing the Canadian HC system is the shortage of doctors. But the reason for the shortage is because doctors’ and nurses’ education in Canada is heavily subsidized by taxpayers. As such, the government gets to decide – in consultation with experts— most of whom are doctors – how many will be trained each year.

    The number of students that medical schools can accept each year depends on the amount of money available in the budget for training, not the actual demand.

    The actual demand always OUTNUMBERS the allocated amount of med students in any given year.

    The biggest challenge will be to increase the allotment for med students. With that ONE significant change, within 10 yrs, wait times would be lowered considerably across the board.

    The US most certainly spends MORE on technology than Canada. But in the US – the health care administrative costs are double that of Canada’s.

    Inspite of the unfounded demonization Conservative in tne US foist upon the Canadian HC system in an attempt to quash Obamacare – Canada STILL ranks HIGHER than the US in Health Care Performance.

    Canada ranked 30th and the U.S. 37th, AND when it comes to the overall health of it citizens.. Canada ranked 35th and Americans 72nd!

    The Conservative Gov’t in Canada has made it clear they do NOT intend to move towards a completely privatized system. And you can bet the liberals never will!!

    So if you want to fight your battle against Obamacare.. which I totally respect —-don’t do it by lying about, or misrepresenting, or demonizing the Canadian HC System. The ignorance by those on both the right and the left when discussing the Canadian HC system is stupefying!

    Personally having experienced both systems…. I’ll take Canada’s National Healthcare system over the HELL I had to deal with and the OBSCENE costs I had to incur in the US for sub par treatment.

    Overall the quality of healthcare I’ve received in Canada far exceeds that which I received in the US.

    • Sully

      Wow. Got your ‘patriotic ire’ up? ;-)
      I agree that there is very little useful in comparing Canada (or England, France, etc.) to the US on health care. From nothing more than an actuarial economics view, they are not comparable.
      I guess you acknowledge though that 70% of your health care system is ‘socialist’?
      While I’d be the first to agree that Medicare and Medicaid are (fiscally failing) ‘socialist’ programs here, but I don’t agree with you tossing in the VA (a supposed benefit, better than mere insurance, for serving your country) to try and make your point. Or using the de-bunked ’45 million uninsured’ or your unsupported assertion that people with insurance “often” have their claims rejected.

      I know… let’s toss US defense spending and how it helps finance that 70% wonder of public health in the Great White North into this mix.

    • http://www.accdf.com aboutTObegin

      and this little tirade also lacks that those that can afford better healthcare more than often travel to the US for it which clearly depicts the lack in quality they recieve at home….if you are so satisfied for your Canadian healthcare system why are you even bothered by what comments come out as long as you are taken care of, right?

      -aTb

    • JS

      Hahaha… On average two weeks wait for a CAT scan or MRI? And 88% get it within 3 months? Nice… Hate to be that guy with a brain tumor or cancer and be in that 12% average range.

      Here in the US, if you have PRIVATE INSURANCE you can get a CAT scan or MRU within days, if not with 24 hours if a doctor thinks your case is urgent.

      Comparing your utterly FAILED health care system to our FAILED medicare medicaid system only proves how laughably wrong you are.

      You see the liberals are trying to get Medicare and Medicaid FOR ALL, so we all have equally horrible health coverage.

      Private insurance coupled with private health care provides a vast superior service in treatment then any other system available. It has been proven time and time again in study after study.

      The fact that Canadians apparently love their health care is beause they don’t think they are paying for it, and most of them aren’t sick. Wait under you get old and start to worry about your health and the treatment you might recieve in your socialist uptopia. That might change your tune.

  • ColinfromCanada

    Danger Girl. I am in Halifax right now and I can only say that your Post is a long list of generalities and half truths. Our Health Care system is ok….that is about it the quality of Care in NO way compares to the quality Given in the United states, can you please elaborate on your own personal experiences using both systems because I am very interested to see the details. I mean a red light goes on when every anybody says 45 million un-insured I mean we all know that number is very misleading as for much of your long winded and to be frank very armature post

  • ColinfromCanada

    My Mother who holds a very high position regarding the Canadian Health care system has made it very very clear. She said and I quote ” If I was to get sick with cancer, I wouldn’t even bother going though our system, I would mortgage my home and get treatment in America.” My mother understands what many who have never been in life or death situations face, that your life is worth more then money.

  • Philly

    At least 30% of Canadian health care is privately funded with most services delivered by private (both for-profit and not-for-profit) providers. (explain which services are privately funded….going to the dentist?) OHIP covers all Medically Necessary services…who decides? The Gov’t decides what is Medically necessary and pays the rates it decides to its so called private doctors…sound private to you?

    while almost half of the U.S. system is publicly funded — for the poor (medicaid), seniors (medicare) and U.S. military. (70% is publicly funded in Canada..so what’s your point)?

    Neither system is purely “public” nor “private.” (Canada is 100% publically funded for services deemed “Medically Necessary”)

    Private insurance is available in Canada for a LONG list of health care services. Just ask any employer!! The Supreme Court of Canada ruled that the Quebec government cannot prevent people from paying for private insurance for healthcare procedures covered under medicare. So yes WE DO HAVE OPTIONS!! (What about Ontario and the other provinces? If Canada has so many choices then why the ruling?)

    This alleged “socialist” healthcare system Americans keep insisting exists in Canada doesn’t cover (a) prescription drugs (b) extra nursing care (c) physiotherapy (d) timely post-operative rehab (e) a nursing home bed or (f) a growing number of medications, tests, treatments and procedures which our governments are delisting almost daily in a bid to cut costs. This would NOT happen if Canada DID have a SOCIALIST HEALTHCARE System. But we don’t and so it does. (The point is that the Gov’t is not the answer because the motivation to cut all the bloated waste, administrative costs, and fraud are not there like they would be if they had to earn money to stay in business) The flaw of all Socialist systems…and I maintain Socialist because 100% of “Medically Necessary” services are Gov’t funded and it is ILLEGAL to privately charge for services. If Canada decided to cover all services related to medical then the system would be bankrupt much much sooner.)

    However, Canadians by an OVERWHELMING MAJORITY REFUSE to change the Health Care system. They will vote ANY politician OUT of office who DARES to even THINK about turning the Canadian H.C.system into a fully privatized system. (The reason is the same….Canadian somehow believe that their services are free and you try to take anything free away from people no matter how bad it really is. I remember my wife asking to take her to the emergency room because she had a headache (she’s Canadian) and I took her to Walgreens…and problem solved. The problem is the mentality that is created by people who think you can just screw a couple millionaires and get stuff for free. Canadians think they have security when they have less healthcare like availability to MRI’s vs. the US).

    Eric Wong’s headline that “Canada tries to correct the mistake of Socialist Healthcare” is not just misleading.. it’s an OUT AND OUT LIE. (No it is not….your system is 100% Socialist for all services deemed “Medically Necessary”).

    Given the demonization of Canadian health care in the U.S., it’s worth noting Americans pay more for it than Canadians per capita (US $6,700 compared to US $3,700) and as a percentage of GDP (15% versus 10%). (Americans pay more for healthcare for a number of reasons, one is Medicare and Medicaid. Two is the employer based insurance we have the shields the true cost of medicine. We have a 3rd party payer system like Canada, only ours has a majority of insurance companies that we pay to pay for our services vs. one Gov’t HMO. Why do we pay someone to pay for our services on our behalf when we don’t do the same at a grocery store? When you bring things back to the market then the market decides what the price is..not an insurance company or a Gov’t)

    While comparing the effectiveness of the two systems is controversial and it’s true the U.S. outperforms Canada in some areas — average life expectancy in Canada is slightly higher and infant mortality rates slightly lower. (Canada has a lower murder rate – that is now changing- and less deaths on the highway vs. the US…of course that has nothing to do with a slightly higher life expectancy rate huh?)

    So much for our National Healthcare system being radically inferior. (Try getting an MRI the next day like my wife did over here in the good ol’US of A as an example).

    But urgent patients receiving immediate access, the least urgent wait longer. It makes sense. In a triage situation.. doctors always treat the urgent patients first! (Because they have to wait to get so friggin sick that they finally qualify to be treated…maybe way too late to be saved)

    Average wait times for diagnostic services such as MRI and CAT scans: two weeks with 89% of the people waiting less than 3 months. (State where you get your facts please, and which province)?

    Average wait time to see a specialist: approx 4 weeks with over 86% waiting less than 3 months. (State where you get your facts please, and which province)?

    Avg wait time for surgery: approx 4 weeks with about 80% waiting less than 3 months. (State where you get your facts please, and which province and which services)?

    In the U.S., patients on Medicaid can wait THREE MONTHS or more to see specialists. (Socialized Medicine at its best)

    In the U.S., 45 million Americans have no medical insurance and those that do often have legitimate claims rejected by private insurers. (This number has been debunked…try a new propaganda approach please)
    In Canada we can chose ANY doctor we want. (If you can find one)

    Contrary to crap Americans are fed – doctors in Canada DO NOT work for the Gov’t. They’re private contractors who bill the government for the services they provide to patients. (Only a Canadian can call someone exclusively paid by the Gov’t for services the Gov’t determines prices for would make such a ludicrous statement)

    In Ontario, like other provinces, fees are set by the government – in consultation with doctors – in order to keep overall costs to the system down. My doctor earns a VERY nice income!! (What do you consider a nice income when you factor in the time and trouble required needed to be a physician? You have one big HMO plan that is imploding…just ask Dr. Anne Doig the new president of the CMA… “We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize,” Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.)

    The total amount that individual doctors can bill the government plan each year is also capped to keep them from “cheating” the system by setting up a volume practice; that is, encouraging, and then charging for, “unnecessary” appointments by patients. A practice that happens frequently in the US.. contributing to rising insurance and healthcare costs! (And who decides what the cap is…a bureaucrat? So they cheat the system huh, so now you have doctors sick and tired of these so called caps and that is a major reason you have doctors practicing in the US or closing their practice. Go to Trenton Ontario and you’ll have to travel all the way to Kingston for a doctor…and that hospital is HORRIBLE..from personal experience).

    One of the big challenges facing the Canadian HC system is the shortage of doctors. But the reason for the shortage is because doctors’ and nurses’ education in Canada is heavily subsidized by taxpayers. As such, the government gets to decide – in consultation with experts— most of whom are doctors – how many will be trained each year. (And what they will be compensated for as well as being dictated where they will practice)

    The number of students that medical schools can accept each year depends on the amount of money available in the budget for training, not the actual demand. The actual demand always OUTNUMBERS the allocated amount of med students in any given year. (Because anything of value that is free always will…this is the Achilles heel of Socialism).

    The biggest challenge will be to increase the allotment for med students. With that ONE significant change, within 10 yrs, wait times would be lowered considerably across the board.

    The US most certainly spends MORE on technology than Canada. But in the US – the health care administrative costs are double that of Canada’s. (More innovation comes out of the US because of the dreaded profit motive…when the Gov’t funds things…you get Amtrak)

    Canada ranked 30th and the U.S. 37th, AND when it comes to the overall health of it citizens.. Canada ranked 35th and Americans 72nd! (From the UN? Excuse me, but I don’t believe a damn word a bunch of socialists in UN says and furthermore what criteria do they use to come up with these so called statistics)?

    Personally having experienced both systems…. I’ll take Canada’s National Healthcare system over the HELL I had to deal with and the OBSCENE costs I had to incur in the US for sub par treatment. (I too have experience both systems and you can keep yours…just tell that to all those Canadians who come south of the border for treatment here in Michigan or Florida)

    Overall the quality of healthcare I’ve received in Canada far exceeds that which I received in the US. (Your opinion so stay in your country…I’ll stay in mind…You keep your Socialism)